Are your sauna benches knotty or nice?

When planning and designing our own saunas, consider that nice sauna benches are a place for attention and investment.

Clear vs. knotty wood sauna benches

Knots are imperfections from branches that cause living wood grain to grow around them. This interwoven grain is tight grain. Tight grain is dense. Dense wood holds much more heat than straight grain. In a hot sauna, around 100°c. (212°f), clear sauna bench stock can be quite warm to the touch, but not intolerable. However, settle your bare ass down on a bench with a knot, and “youch!,” Never do that again!

Not all wood species for sauna benches are created equal

Soft grain wood is the key for building sauna benches. In North America, Western Red Cedar is the “go too” premium choice for making sauna benches. The wood is soft, relatively cool compared to other wood, and looks beautiful. Show me a premium sauna in North America, and chances are this sauna will be radiating coolness with clear cedar sauna benches.

There are a couple of other wood species for sauna benches coming into the fold. Namely Basswood and Aspen. Like cedar, these species are soft grain. Yet unlike cedar, these species grow fast and don’t hold up great to moisture. That said, those that practice the “bake and breathe method” for zen and the art of their sauna maintenance should have no longevity problem using these species for building their sauna benches.

Does wood thickness matter for sauna benches?

Absolutely! If you are purchasing pre made sauna benches from the open market, take note as to the “stock” or thickness of sauna benches. Most companies making sauna benches use “1x” material (eg. 3/4″ thick). Not cool! Defenders of using 1x stock for making sauna benches can tell you that it doesn’t matter, but i’m here to tell you that if your buttox region could talk it would tell you that it does matter.

What is the best width for making sauna benches?

I’ve sat on and built sauna benches from 2″ wide to 6″ wide. By FAR the best width for sauna benches is 2×4. Why? 2×4’s, with approximately 3/4″ gap between boards provides the perfect bench to air ratio. Benches made with too wide boards don’t breathe as well. Benches made with too narrow boards tend to be less comfy. It’s just the way it is. This may be subjective observation, but this fact has been confirmed by many a sauna nut.

When I built the 612 sauna benches in 2016, I commanded a team of enthusiastic volunteers (Rodsky, JP) to area Depot Menards to pick through piles and piles of 2×4 cedar bins in order to find runs of clear 2×4 cedar. This was a pain of the ass. The two of them needed a swig from the bottle in the photo below to get through the task.

But it was worth it.

Ask anyone who has sat on the sauna benches in the 612 Sauna. They may not know that these benches are made from clear 2×4 cedar, but their buttox sure knows. 1x stock gets hot. 2x not as hot. Why? 2×4 cedar is less dense. Sitting on a sauna bench made from 1x stock is that much closer to sitting on a tin can. Those that have sat on hundreds of different sauna benches (like I have) can tell the difference. And the difference is worth your consideration.

Check out the benches inside the 612 sauna:

JP in Mobile Sauna
JP overlooking the first light of 612 Mobile Sauna (photo: another co op volunteer).

Remember, we build our sauna benches one time, and we get to sit on them the rest of our lives.

Yes, clear cedar comes with a price. As of this writing, clear cedar wholesales for around $4.00/lineal foot. Ouch! that’s almost as painful as sitting your bare ass down on a big dark hot knot on a sauna bench.

This article is BS, just sit on a towel. No big deal.

Well, ok. You can do that. But some people think sweaty towels are janky. And trying to keep track of good towels vs. sweaty towels takes away from one of the freedoms of sauna, especially if a sauna guest goes to dry their eyes on a sweaty towel. And there are the sauna paddles, most often used in savusaunas where if you don’t sit on one of these, “your ass is black after this moment.”

And if we’re getting technical about sweat, good saunas, with good ventilation, take care of sweat in a safe, closed loop, hygienic way. (sweat evaporates, goes away, dries up).

A few tips for building our own sauna benches

Six is the magic number for the number of clear boards for building your sauna. As we see in this photo, a stout 24″: wide bench calls for 5 deck boards on long face, and two frame boards on short face. The back frame board can be knotty, as it is hidden along the sauna wall. And we save money by compromising and using semi knotty benches for our cooler, lower benches, where we sit less often.

2×4 cedar makes for ideal sauna benches

EDITORS NOTE: This sauna bench in the photo above was built in 1996. The cedar has developed an even softer, gentler patina. It shows no signs of stopping (and i’ve brought some corn for popping).

When I build sauna benches, I use the best board for the front face of the sauna bench. This is the “money board” which is seen and felt (behind the knees) by you, and everybody else that will come to your sauna every round, every moment.

The Sauna Build Start to Finnish ebook has very detailed plans on how to build really awesome sauna benches.

Is it time to treat yourself to a clear sauna bench upgrade?

The best saunas are those that get used. The best sauna benches are those that get sat on. For those of you who have built their benches using knotty stock, or 1x material or other compromises, so what? You built a sauna! And you built benches! Good on you.

clear cedar 2×4’s do not fit well under the Christmas tree, but this could be a motivational gift that will be remembered for a sauna lover for the rest of their lives.

This article brought to you by the Clear Wood Council, where we are learning from the Seedless Watermelon Society, looking to make the world a knot free and happier place.

Sauna benches basking in the sun prior to installation.

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35 thoughts on “Are your sauna benches knotty or nice?”

  1. Unfortunately, I’ve built a technically bad sauna because I’m sweaty when I’m done with every round. I put in 3 4″x10″ vents in the recommended locations. There’s a 4″ inch gap in the hot room door. The bottom bench is at the same height of the top of the stove/rocks. The only thing I can think of at this point is to increase the gaps in between the clear cedar bench boards but I’m skeptical that doing that would bring my sauna to the “technically good” level.

    As I continue to read about sauna, I am coming to the conclusion that trying to emulate the existential authentic sauna experience is overcomplicated and filled with too much dogma.

    At the end of the day, the sauna gets really hot and when water is poured on the rocks, the loyly surrounds everyone and all is good. I even use a towel so all of my non-evaporting sweat soaks in it and then I wipe my happy face with it. When I’m done, I throw it on the bench to dry and repeat the process the next day.

  2. I guess I’m a rebel. I used clear WRC 2×2. I like 2×2 more than the industrial feel of 2×4. Sure, I need an extra brace under the bench to provide strength. No problem. Would have done than anyway.
    Living in the PNW, western red cedar (WRC) is the right choice. There are great discount retailers where you can vind 3-4-5-6-7 foot T&G lengths at 1/2 the price of “market”. Bench material was pretty much all market pricing, but, oh well. Sauna is sitting at 225deg, so I need to get off this blog and ready to go.

  3. Wes. Using 2×2’s for bench stock? I’m reaching for my yellow card. How dare you? (Totally kidding).

    I knew this post would draw some ire, and that’s ok, as we are doers, and, as mentioned, the best sauna benches are the ones that get used, and the even better ones are the ones that get used that we built.

    Your mention of lumber retailers in PNW (Pacific Northwest) reminds me also of your seafood retailers, and brewers retailers, oh, and coffee retailers.

    This writer has PNWRE (Pacific Northwest retailer envy).

    Here in Minneapolis, we seem to have to scour more extensively. We do have one old school lumber retailer in town who, from time to time, comes upon WRC (western red cedar) in odd and beautifully clear configurations. When discovered, it’s like landing a nice coho, or sipping a freshly brewed mosaic, or taking home a bag of favorite roasted blend.

    PS.. “Industrial feel.” Tremendous! Has me thinking about ripping clear 2×6’s for a more unique width bench stock. “Opti-bench™: 22% improved butt to air ratio, authorized by the Sauna Persnickety Society.”

  4. Glenn, your information is amazing. I really appreciate all your work and effort to share your knowledge. Wanting to know your opinion on the need to put a heated floor in a basement sauna. The floor is concrete and seems to become obviously quite cold. Would there be that much more benefit to having heat on the floor or would you recommend just leaving it as concrete. Thanks,

  5. Hi Jesse:

    Glad saunatimes is working for you. Makes me happy.

    Regarding a heated floor in a basement sauna, this is sure the “A job.”

    A “B job” could be to lay rigid poly-iso atop the concrete floor, then durarock. This would isolate the cold.

    The “C job” could work, duck board over the cement floor.

    Not recommending “C” but giving you a range of options.

  6. Hey- I need help! Just completed my basement sauna build with an electric heater (Finlandia, 3kw w/ built in controls) and it is not reaching temp. Takes 1 hr to reach 140 F. I rearranged the rocks, sealed around the door & no change.

    My sauna is 140 cubic feet. Everything I read said 1kw=50 cubic feet. This heater says max is 130. Is size the problem here? Do I need a bigger heater or could there be another problem?

    I built my sauna according to all reccomendations. R13 plus foil bubble wrap. Used cedar fence panels. 2.5 inch gap under door, proper venting on opppsite wall.

    What the….?

  7. A question about insulation and the floor (unrelated to benches…):

    It seems to me that the ‘build a sauna’ ebook from this site has a sauna with an uninsulated floor (am I reading it correctly?) If we are especially concerned about insulating, why would we not insulate the floor? If you can light a candle and heat your hot room after the foil bubble wrap stage, does that mean that the floor is insulated?

    I have blue rigid foam I got for free that I was planning on using to insulate the floor. The sauna is also going to double as a tiny guest house. The following list is my construction plan to insulate the floor. I’d love your feedback and advice!

    1-Lay down blue foam on the existing plywood floor (can’t take the plywood up, it’s a retrofit install) in the changing room and hot room.
    2- Put down the cheaters in the hot room for the drain in the hot room. Install drain.
    3-Put down cement board in the hot room on top of the cheaters and secure it THROUGH the blue foam into the studs from the floor.
    4-Put down plywood for the changing room, then linoleum for the final surface.
    5-Put up the interior wall between changing room and hot room.
    6-Continue on as per ebook!

    7-I could skip the insulation of the floor all together, what do you think?

    Thank you!

  8. Hi Rebecca:

    For sure! Do this.

    There is a wide range of options and opinions relating to floors for outdoor saunas. We can break it down into floor for hot room and/or floor for the cool down room.

    Old school saunas often have been built and are built right on decking. While sitting on the sauna bench, between the deck slats, you are able to look down and see the granite outcropping, underbrush or a passing critter. Many would scoff at this design, but these saunas work perfectly fine. This system benefits from the heat rising principle, infinite venting, drainage, and simplicity. And it does deserve note that the deck gap hot room flooring system is generally for saunas used in the non winter season, but there are exceptions to this, such as winter trips to the cabin, but for discussion, this is generally the gig.

    Then we have the shed subfloor – sheetrock – sleeper – skim coat – drain system. This is a hugely practical solution in that
    1. Water is guided to a controlled escape (drain).
    2. The floor is waterproof (vinyl skim coat).
    3. Feet stay relatively dry (duck board or “3rd bench” atop).
    4. Critters and bugs are in their upright and locked position outside.

    Insulating the floor is the question, and we can do this with a new build by ripping rigid insulation the width of our floor joists and setting these strips flush up underneath with sleepers to insulate our floor underneath our subfloor.

    In your case, you’re spot on. We all know that heat rises. If our goal is to envelop our hot room, our floor is a cold point. We control cold air coming in with air vent intake, yet there is merit to being able to heat our hot room throughout, dense like an oven (see lämpömassa).

    I prefer an insulated changing area as “our feet get cold first.” Being able to ride out our cool downs with warm feet and cooling body (mass) is about as nirvana as it gets. Further, the optimal sauna, my empirical opinion (hotty toddy for “experience”), is one in which the changing room floor is heated by radiant, yet the room is brisk and cool everywhere else.

    So, you got me in a rambling mood with a long answer to a basic build question.

    Yes, isolate your subfloor with rigid!

    And if you really want to get crazy, check in with a flooring store that sells coil or matt radiant floor systems, and really go to town. If you love the idea, yet face headwinds via significant other, cost, or “that looks hard to do”, consider that you have this opportunity only one time (now) and you’ll be able to enjoy the benefits between rounds forever (and hopefully this will be a long time!).

  9. Have to second the 2 x 2 recommendation from Wes above. Here in Southern California dimensional WRC lumber is hard to locate. I used redwood for the benches (WRC T&G for the walls) and the 2 x 2’s with 3/8″ gaps provide great airflow. Home Depot sells 8 foot long smooth-finished redwood 2 x 2’s that I think are primarily intended for staircase and deck railings. Works great, looks great, and the cost is reasonable. Odor is not as nice as WRC but otherwise no complaints.

  10. Hi Kelly – I’ve got a pretty good background with electric heaters, and while it may be a little undersized for the room, 140 F after an hour is ridiculous. Is the heater temp limit tripping? During that hour are the heater elements on continuously or are they shutting off after a while? If it’s the latter the heater’s temp sensor may be fouled up or not getting adequate airflow and shutting off the elements prematurely. That’s the first thing I’d check. Next I’d make sure all 3 heating elements are turning on (glowing when energized), maybe one was damaged or burned out.

    Not to be a smart alec but are you sure it’s wired up properly? If it was inadvertently wired with 120 V rather than 240 V it will likely still turn on but only put out 1/4 the heat. If that was the case you probably wouldn’t even get to 140 F but I thought I’d throw it out there.

    Like I said it may be a little undersized but since you are indoors it should still go much hotter than 140. Assuming nothing is wrong with it, how’s your ceiling insulation? Are you closing the exhaust vent during warm up? If all that is fine and you are still only getting 140 I would have to think it’s something with the heater.

  11. Hi Jeff-
    Thanks for your informative reply. Although I am lacking in experience, 140 F seems like a ridiculous under-performance to me as well. Ceiling is R13 plus foil bubble wrap. I do close the vent while heating up. Yep to 240 V (thanks for being thorough). I haven’t run the heater without rocks, so I don’t have a visual on the elements. I will try that.

    I did notice that the heater turned off prior to the 1 hour preset (around 45 mins after running). The manufacturer had me put a thermostat directly above the heater (6 in from ceiling) and get a reading. The results were: 165 F at 30 mins and 190 F at 1 hr– directly above heater. That seems low to me. The sitting area only reached 140F.

    I am going to follow up with trying to get a replacement heater– just trying to make sure there is nothing faulty on my end. Thanks so much for your advice. Any other tidbits welcome!!


  12. Kelly – Just take out enough rock so you can see the tops of the elements, don’t take them all out. Also, only run it long enough so you can see that all three elements are glowing. The elements are not designed to run without rocks so you don’t want to run it for a prolonged period like this.

    If the heater is turning off before the room gets to temp then the heater must think the room is hotter than it really is. This could be a sensor issue (bad location, incorrect calibration, poor airflow, etc.) or it could be something about the room geometry causing a large temp gradient. Your 50 deg temp difference between above the heater and the bench is very large, my sauna is only around a 15-20 deg difference to the upper bench. Is that measured on an upper bench or a lower bench?

    I know you said your sauna was 140 ft3 but what are the interior dimensions? Is your ceiling higher than 7 feet? Also, do you have anything like a very large window or large stone surface that may not allow heat to escape? Last off, where is your exhaust vent located and how large is it? Moving the exhaust vent lower (like under the upper bench) will cause the air to circle the room more and have less of a floor to ceiling gradient.

    Let us know how it goes and good luck.

  13. Hey Jeff-
    I took a few layers of rocks off & inspected elements while running. No visible glow with sauna light on. With it completely dark, there was a glow, but it was faint in spots – could not clearly decipher shape of all elements.

    My sauna height is 5’9 (had low basement ceiling/duct work to avoid). The room length is 6’8, width is 40″. The entrance way is an additional 11.5 ft3 that slightly juts out from the rectangular room.

    I only have one bench (due to size of room)- it is 27″ from the ground.

    No windows. No stone surfaces. It has a cement floor (basement) which I have covered with foam board & am in the process of laying decking on top of. (Heater performance did not change much after installation of foam board).

    Exhaust vent is located on the wall opposite of heater (both placed on the shorter, 40″ walls), just below ceiling. The vent being closed or opened has not affected temp.

    Side note: in subsequent tests. The temp directly above heater only reached 150 F after 30 mins & 175 F after 1 hr.


  14. Hello Jeff,
    I’m wondering what you think of a solid bench.
    I have 1 1/2” x 12” slabs of eastern white cedar (aka arborvitae, or northern white cedar) that I am loath to cut down to 2×4”
    Love your blog…

  15. Hi Alex:

    Glad your are enjoying saunatimes. You have what we call a “first world wood availability problem”. Instead of cutting down these slabs, please email me your physical address. I’m wanting to drive down and sweet talk you into helping me load these slabs of Eastern White Cedar to back haul to Minnesota.

    Here in MN, our local white cedar takes 88 years to bring up to serving temperature. We are known to grovel in the Home Depot aisles looking for any length runs of knot free 2×4 Western Red to assist with our bench building, or take out a mortgage to purchase #1 clear.

    Anyhow, I’m rambling. Back to your question. Solid bench: not a fan. (and pardon the pun). We like air to circulate underneath and around our buttox region (reference: Tom Hanks, Forrest Gump). Experientially, a 3/4″ deck width gap between 2×4 is about the best ratio we’ve ever felt.

    I feel you on the cringe of cutting down those precious slabs.

  16. Hi Glenn,

    What are your thought on building the entire sauna interior with basswood? We have a surplus of basswood boards unused from another project. They are rough cut at 1 1/8″ x 6″. We use a local mill to have them tongue and grooved or made into plane trim boards.

  17. Basswood for sauna: Yes. You can do this. Be sure to practice the “bake and breathe method” to ensure that your sauna dries out.

    As you know, basswood is much less hearty when it comes to moisture and long life. Any moisture hanging around will shorten the life of basswood.

  18. hi Glenn. Hello there. Great website!

    After looking at precut kits and such, and based on the odd size (about 4.5 feet deep x 6 feet wide x 7 ‘ tall), we want to get clear western red lumber and build a small inside sauna; is where an old wheelchair accessible shower stall. My cousin is a carpenter and will assist. Will be an all glass front we are getting from shower company here

    I cant find any clear western red cedar T&G, 2-bys or anything, locally. Do you have a suggestion for an online retailer? Its not a ton of lumber. About 142 SF of clear T&G. 4″ x 1/2″ (or 3/4″). Lets say 150 LF of 1-by for trim and skirt.. And 72 LF of 2-by for bench tops and support/wall rail; “rounded” for comfort. 18 LF of 2×2 for holding benches together.  Will also need a heater guard and I guess vents though since we are converting an old shower (its stripped down to the studs now) I am not sure yet how we will vent out (I mean where). Any advice is appreciated.

    Davidson NC

  19. Hi Brendan:

    1. Precut kits: They may work, but like with most things, you get what you pay for. Imagine being the pre-cut procurement officer for a sauna company. If you can source less expensive (cheaper) paneling, think you’d do it? Maybe get Purchase Agent of the Month plaque for saving $450.00 per month? Don’t mean to be crass about it, as the rising sauna tide lifts most boats, but one of the virtues of DIY is we get to pick our lumber and know exactly how we have built our walls, and what they look like as the löyly clears.

    2. Western red cedar: You sure you need clear? I actually prefer knotty. It’s less wimpy stock and more “nature”, and more readily available. I’d call around and keep searching. Cedar is becoming like Cuban cigars.. many think they have an angle on where to purchase, and there’s limited supply. But like a good Fuentes, we love the smell of cedar in the morning… it smells like…

    3. 2x2s for bench..I very much prefer 2×4 cedar. Clear for top bench. Please search “sauna bench” on saunatimes for more on this (air flow, density, etc.).

    Hope this helps.. sauna on!

  20. Hey, does anyone know if treating the benches with Paraffin oil is worth it? I just build a new sauna/benches and want to start it out right!

  21. John:

    Please don’t do this! You’ll never be able to go back. There is a sauna wood oil from Sweden, I believe, and I think it may be called Scandian or similar. I’ve been on saunas that have this and it’s better. I prefer nothing, but a place to start is the lower bench first. See if it works for you, then apply to the upper bench. Low bench gets more foot traffic, obviously. and is less prone to ouch, which is what would happen with a standard oil product. Too much ouch. Hope this helps!

  22. thanks. yeah, the paraffin oil iI was looking at is from Stelon, in Finland (sold by superior saunas in Duluth), but was wondering if its unnecessary.

  23. I read through the bench section in the building guide. Am I reading correctly that there are no supports across the 2x4s other than the 3″ at the ends? Recommends triangular supports on the upper bench but nothing on the bottom? I was curious if that is sturdy enough for a couple people?

    Also, I was wondering if the bench is ever wobbly when rested on the supports? Doesn’t seem like they are actually attached to the supports. Do you find that you’re sliding them around to free up space? My hot room is 8’x6′ and I’m 44″ from the wall to the stove heat shield.

    Sorry for all the questions, but one last one. Is there a specific reason why the bottom bench doesn’t extend to the wall and has a gap? Is that for air flow to the upper bench?

    Thank you so much! Really appreciate this site and any feedback others have.

  24. Hi Mark:

    Pleased that this website and the ebook is helping you.

    Low bench: Yes, in most of my builds and others’ builds, 3″ “runners” or bracing on the ends is enough to support a lower bench. We find this to be enough up to 7’4″ (the span for an 8′ wide structure). Any longer bench seems to want a post, esp. for megga weight sauna guests. And a center post is not that big of a thing to install “after market.” If going with a bench post, install a furniture foot slider floor glide to suspend the post from the floor and help the lower bench slide in and out.

    Generally, we build the low bench with the same 24″ width as it gives the low bench the freedom to tuck under the upper bench for cleaning and for hot room jumping jacks (a practice that hopefully doesn’t gain traction, like goat yoga has).

    Hope this helps!

  25. Thanks so much Glenn! I really appreciate the response. I’m 44″ from the wall to the Kuuma heat. Think it’s ok to have the runner all the way to the heat shield? Or should I set back a few inches?

  26. Runner all the way to the heat shield may be pushing your luck, i’d end it bit from the heat shield. Your middle/lower bench can be fully extended during sauna action, when the building inspector and UL certification compliance officer are having lunch together.

    We build our saunas safe, and per instruction manuals, but we know that when we are using our saunas, we’ll be able to tell if materials are being heat compromised. (ie darkening from wood being too close). #practical thinking.

  27. Hi, love the site and all the tips and info!
    I was wondering if there is any wisdom around open vs closed bench design. I mean the boxed in benches sometimes seen in saunas vs the standard horizontal platform variety. I can imagine the boxed-in style reduces the volume of air to be heated? and possibly improves circulation of the air?

    This does not seem to be something discussed often, at least I could not see any articles/posts on the question.
    Any feedback appreciated!
    Many thanks

  28. Toby,

    I’m very much on your wavelength!

    Mebbe we work on a stand alone article “out of the box thinking with boxed in benches vs. open benches”

    We can get nerdy about:
    1. air flow
    2. de-massing the cube
    3. optimal de-jankification.

    Re #1, I feel the flow of air underneath, and I gotta think it’s a good thing. My non patented bench design, in my 30 plus year experience, creates the best air flow from under and above, and provides the best wood/air ratio ergonomics for the Forrest Gump “buttox region.”
    Re #2, I know folks who have built cabin saunas and use the negative space under boxed in benches for wood storage via a closet door access panel from the outside.
    Re #3, Commercial saunas, like Chicago Sweatlodge and many others, box in their bench seating and tile underneath wood for sitting. In this case, they hose out the hot room, as the horizontal tile is pitched.

    Toby, if you want to email me a guest post outline, please do! We need two clear photos, one illustrating boxed benches, the other illustrating the conventional open air underneath benches.

  29. I added 2×4 “duck board” cedar benches atop my boxed-in seating because the solid surface seats would get wet and yucky and there was no ventilation to allow air to circulate air under the buttocks region. The cubic feet cut by interior bench buildout is largely irrelevant as it is down low and heat rises (law of loyly). If storage is at a premium and/or you want your sauna to double as a boat house, interior bench buildout may be a good option, but you will need to add “duck board” benches for proper airflow.

  30. Hello Glenn,

    I read lots obout the wood to use for walls and benches. I am curious about the wood to use for framing the walls and also for building the frames for benches.

    Can this be Pinewood?
    Is it essential the Pine is untreated, even for that used behind the cedar and foil?

    thanks for your insights into this.

  31. Hi Danny,

    Straight pine, or SPF (Spruce, Pine, Fir) is what you want to use for framing walls. Treated is more expensive and has yucky in it, best reserved for outdoor use. The exception is bottom plate where the material is in contact, potentially, with cement and moisture. There, green treated is good idea.

    Regarding framing for benches, it’s best to follow my ebook. In there, you’ll see how we like to attach “cleats” or headers to the wall, and this material is ideally cedar, like the walls, whereupon benches can rest thereupon hereto, henceforth. It’s a good way to go, I declare, as benches are best built separate and brought into hot room as “independent events.”

  32. Just had my wood burning sauna shed delivered. There are live edge untreated benches in the change room/screened in porch area. Should I be treating this wood or leaving it au natural?Thanks for your thoughts!
    Dee in northern Ontario

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